Winning gives the push to do more – a light and hope and a sense of power. You have to acknowledge the little and big wins, to give you energy for the bigger and longer fights. We’re joined by longtime activist and community George Goehl. He’s also in a 5 year strong group chat with Amy and Rebecca. With a career spanning over three decades, George has tackled everything from federal financial reform to local battles for better trash cans. He has a proven track record of turning community struggles into victories and we need the formula for that winning energy. 

You can hear more of George’s work on To See Each Other, a podcast produced by The Mash-Up Americans. Listen HERE.

You can find his book, Fundamentals of Community Organizing, through his Substack.

An Edited Transcript of Our Convo:

Amy S. Choi: You’re listening to The Mash-Up Americans. Hey, I’m Amy S. Choi.

Rebecca Lehrer: And I’m Rebecca Lehrer. We are The Mash-Up Americans. Team Mash-Up Americans.

Amy S. Choi: Oh, you know what Team Mash-Up American always does? We win.

Rebecca Lehrer: We’re winners.

Amy S. Choi: We’re winners. We’re winners.

Rebecca Lehrer: Well, I think one of the things that we’ve been observing in this world is that winning is actually important. Winning gives the push to do more. It’s a light, and a hope, and a sense of power. It’s whatever the opposite of nihilism and cynicism is. It’s actually having a win, you feel in your body. And you have to acknowledge the little and big wins to give you energy for the bigger and longer fights. It’s a tenet of community organizing. Wins are important. That may be something on some of our minds right now, doing things like winning presidential elections.

Amy S. Choi: I feel like that would be a real big win for everybody.

Rebecca Lehrer: I guess it depends who you ask who should win.

Amy S. Choi: Right, right, right, right, right. (singing) A big one for Mash-Up America, we know who that is.

Rebecca Lehrer: (singing) She shall remain nameless. It’s also the win of, Amy, you getting a successful AAPI Heritage Month going at elementary school.

Amy S. Choi:  Oh, huge win. Huge.

Rebecca Lehrer:  Huge win. And actually, it made you feel that you could do more at the school.

Amy S. Choi:  It’s true.

Rebecca Lehrer:  It’s even the way you talk about it. You’re like, “Oh, now it’s on the PTA budget, and now these things are going to happen going forward, even after me.”

Amy S. Choi:  Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer:  It’s a win for the whole community. For me, it’s organizing a group of parents to be room reps at our school where there were none. And now, we are able to help teachers who need support, and get them their baby wipes, and clean up the yard. All sorts of things that just create a better sense of community. Create a deeper, richer, more connected fabric.

It just feels so important. We know studies show this. Again, the principles of community organizing show this. Which are that winning actually begets more wins. Winning, and a sense of winning, and a sense of acknowledging each of those wins. Sometimes the win seems like a loss. You went to the city council meeting and the thing didn’t change that time. But actually, over time, more people come and that idea, or that concept, or that proposal does change. Even getting 100 people to show up was the win.  We’re trying to reframe this deficit framing that we feel like is swirling in this world, and in social media, and just around, the bad vibes. And really think about what winning looks like and what it means for us.

Amy S. Choi:  Yeah. I think the reframe is so important. And also, remember anything that you’re doing to take a step forward, and this is what we mean, this is what Rabbi Susan Goldberg taught us, is that to do what you can in your corner of the world, that’s a win. We are going to celebrate that.

The person we learn the most from about winning, and the impact of all kinds of wins in our community, and the great political fight to push America to live up to her potential, is our friend the great George Goehl. George is the former executive director of People’s Action. He is now back to his roots as a community organizer with Addition. He’s also a real goofball, and then some.

Rebecca Lehrer:  Oh, yeah. He really is. The group chat that we have is a lot.

Amy S. Choi:  Surprising.

Rebecca Lehrer: Our other spouses are confused about how much texting we’re doing. “You talking to George?” My kids used to do an impression, “I’m George Goehl.” We met George through his wife, the powerhouse organizer Ai-jen Poo, and became fast friends and collaborators. Over the past five years, we’ve made several podcasts, including To See Each Other and Fundamentals of Organizing. We’ve made an audiobook together. And now, he’s finally on our show to talk to us about organizing our community and winning all the fights we have in front of us. And unapologetically celebrating each and every one. Here’s the great George Goehl.

Amy S. Choi: George.

George Goehl: Yes?

Amy S. Choi: George Goehl.

Rebecca Lehrer: Welcome. This is the group chat-

Amy S. Choi: Welcome to our podcast.

Rebecca Lehrer: Come to life.

George Goehl: Oh my God.

Rebecca Lehrer:

(singing) The group chat’s on. George Goehl, we’ve been friends a long time now, but you have never been on The Mash-Up Americans Podcast. This is a different dynamic.

Amy S. Choi: This is part of our DEI initiative, where we like to bring in a white heterosexual male onto our podcast once a season.

Rebecca Lehrer: And learn what his life is like.

Amy S. Choi: We’re just going to ask you a bunch of questions, George.

George Goehl: Okay.

Amy S. Choi: I think one of the things that we learned from you, that sometimes it’s one of the most profound lessons that I think us, or anybody that has worked with us at The Mash-Up Americans on a George Goehl project, of which there have been many, is how we see each other as people. I think it has been profound in so many ways, of not just how to see people across political spectrums or cultural divides, but also when you can see people as whole people deserving of dignity, and their own humanity, and being able to be curious.

You also realize that so much of our politics are about how we win, which is what we want to get into today, the importance of winning. But how do we make wins that don’t leave people behind? It’s that seeing other people means that we never give up on other people. And also, thinking about losing, because I think that feeling of losing is what has ripped us all apart in some way. This feeling that one part of America has lost, or we’re taking America back. Because it feels like, to those people that want to take America back from whom also, it’s a zero-sum game.

I want to start off the conversation with thinking about how do we define winning without saying, “Oh, we’re winners and somebody else is a loser.”

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah. In community organizing, in your specific life’s work, how do you define a win?

George Goehl: Yeah. I think one of the great things about community organizing is our secret sauce is teaching people how to win first. Then, within that, we sometimes try to figure out what’s a fight people can get into where we actually might win? A more cynical person could say, “Well, you didn’t really address the underlying problem.” Racism, sexism, capitalism, whatever it is.

Rebecca Lehrer: The isms.

George Goehl: The isms. It’s true. But what we’re trying to address is the fundamental problem of people actually believing we’re screwed and there’s nothing you can do about it. We’re trying to address that cynicism. We try to figure out, we call it cutting an issue, which means taking out, carving out a more manageable part of a very big problem. That could be the lack of affordable housing, or racism, or overzealous police, and trying to carve out some part of it that a set of people might actually be able to win. Then build a campaign around that, and then we win.

I’ll just say, one of my first campaigns when I moved to the city of Chicago was to get rid of the rats. At one level, there was part of me is like, “Wait, what am I doing? I’m busting my ass 80 hours a week to get rid of the rats?” But at the end of the day, people were like, “Yeah, if you can’t get rid of the rats, why am I going to believe you’re going to help us win a campaign on affordable housing, or making the schools better?”

We ran a campaign. We got the Deputy Commissioner of Rodent Control in the city of Chicago. A position I didn’t know exists. I was like, “Man, there are a lot of rats here. We got a deputy commissioner?”

Amy S. Choi: I think New York has a Rat Czar.

Rebecca Lehrer: Oh.

Amy S. Choi: I think that’s his job title.

George Goehl: No, no. I think you guys have more …

Rebecca Lehrer: More rats?

George Goehl: Well, I think another level of rat-

Rebecca Lehrer: Ratitude.

George Goehl: Let’s call it hierarchy.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

George Goehl:

In Chicago, I was like, “Wow, okay. We couldn’t get the commissioner, but there is a deputy commissioner.” They came out to the meeting. 80 people showed up. We chanted yes or no, and she eventually agreed to new trash cans, and rat poison in the alleys, and we won. People felt like we won.

I remember, after that meeting, the people that organized the meeting were almost floating. They were all smiling. They’re like, “Wait a minute. We got a city official to come out, and we put pressure on them, and now we got new trash cans.” The problem was that the rats were so aggressive, they were literally chewing through the trash cans, which then meant they could get access to all kinds of stuff.

Rebecca Lehrer: Deep dish pizza.

George Goehl: Lots of deep dish pizza and hot dogs.

Rebecca Lehrer: With celery salts, or whatever.

George Goehl: Oh, yeah. Wow. Good job. That’s good.

Rebecca Lehrer: Thank you.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: You’re welcome.

George Goehl: I would expect Amy to know that, but not you, so I’m impressed.

But then, they were ready to take on bigger fights. I think we’re in a weird moment culturally where it’s if you don’t change the whole thing, it’s bullshit.

Amy S. Choi: Right.

George Goehl: You don’t win Medicare for all. You don’t completely reorganize X system or Y system, it doesn’t count. At one level, I get why we got to have big north stars. What are we really trying to change? But if we want to bring more people along, you got to line wins up along the way or people are going to be cynical, and we’re going to lose people, and we’re going to get smaller, and nothing good will happen.

Rebecca Lehrer: God, I have so many follow-ups, as usual. I feel like, I just want to talk about even this perception of winning. In this specific moment, and maybe when this comes out, we’ll be in a different moment. I hope not. How a win or a perceived win changes a whole perspective on the future.

For example, pre-July 21st, 2024, there was a sense, I think across parties, that this election was really headed in one direction. There was risk mitigation, and all these things. Suddenly, with Joe Biden moving out of the election, and Kamala becoming the nominee, and Walz as well, you suddenly have a totally different context in which you’re operating. For me, regardless of the two new candidates, it actually is the most interesting is how everybody truly changed, a sense of what is possible to win.

I would love to drill down, it doesn’t have to be the specifics of the election, but how do we take that feeling, that learning of, wow, that possibility opening up, and apply it to lots of other things?

George Goehl: I love that. First, let’s imagine things didn’t change. Imagine that Joe Biden was still the candidate. I would say, for 14, 15 months, I would show up somewhere, with people that are not part of organizing or the progressive sector, and somebody would say, “How are you feeling about the election?” They were clearly really anxious, super scared, and kind of paralyzed. I’ve met so many of those people. I think that’s millions of people were in that state. Again, imagine Biden was still the candidate. Where we would all, every minute, stuck in a state of worry, of refreshing the news, of taking in more data on how screwed we were. It’s a complete waste of time. Both in changing what’s possible in the world, but also in our own personal mental health. What a horrible place to be, but that was millions of us.

I think one of the things I’ve learned from organizing is step out of that and move to action. They’ll be some anxiety in action, because you’re going to take risk. You’re going to call a bunch of people over to your house for a fundraiser. You’re going to go canvas, and knock on doors, and maybe get rejected. They’ll be new anxieties. Trust me, those anxieties suck a lot less than just being in a state of perpetual fear, and being completely demobilized. I think that would be one thing I would say.

Then the other thing I’d say is the reality we live in now is some people organized. Some people said, after that debate performance, said, “This is not acceptable.” Really, some miraculous behind the scenes organizing happened. Incredible. Maybe someday, we’ll read a book about it, and the story will be about it was some people said, “This is not okay.”

Rebecca Lehrer: It’s the next season of The West Wing?

George Goehl: Yes, it’s definitely the next season of The West Wing. For sure. But some people said, “I’m not going to accept this. I’m not going to be in a state of worry.”

I would just say, we’re going to be in other shitty conditions again. We all got to figure out, “What do I got to do to just step outside of this anxiety loop and take some action?”

Amy S. Choi: It’s that anxiety loop and the fear that you’re talking about, they seem to be holding hands with the cynicism that we’re trying to break out of. That the cynicism that organizing gets us out of because, like you said, that one shift or that one win suddenly makes possibility or imagination available to us.

I wonder, how do you look at breaking down a huge goal? Like, say, saving democracy, or saving ourselves from fascism, or any of the isms that we were talking about earlier.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: Into small, achievable wins? How do you think about cutting these issues in a way that, again, we can apply this to our lives? And just our approach to living.

George Goehl: Just for example, let’s suppose the thing you cared about most was healthcare, and Medicare. Basically, Medicare for all. That you had some worldview around that. One, you want to be clear on what is that thing you’re trying to realize, what’s the big goal, the big north star. Then you got to be like, “Okay, we could just beat our fists for Medicare for all for the next 20 years, and maybe that’ll work.” But actually, history would show that people broke it down.

At the community organizing level you might be like, “What are we going to win around healthcare in Humboldt Park in Chicago,” close to where I live. Or in Reedsburg, Wisconsin, where I’m at now. Or you might go, “Let’s have a demand for what Medicare for all, but we’re going to just try to get Medicare, the age eligibility, reduced to 60-years-old.” We’re going to organize around that. We’re going to carve out pieces of this thing, so we’re really clear on where we’re trying to go, but we’re just cutting into this and we’re getting wins along the way.

Because people are smart. They’re like, “I don’t want to be on a losing team the rest of my life. I want to win some shit.” So people go, “Shit, we got to reduce to people at 60-years and older.” That’s a lot of people. That’s tens of millions of people that now have Medicare because we organized around this thing. Yeah, it’s not the whole thing. We didn’t solve the whole problem, but we actually won stuff. Then we got a bunch more people who believe.

That’s the thing is not enough people believe. We chant, “I believe we will win” at our protests. Most people don’t believe we’re going to win.

Rebecca Lehrer: Right.

George Goehl: We have to design everything to create more believers.

Rebecca Lehrer: Well, it’s interesting too, even. We’re elder Millennials. Me and Amy, not you.

George Goehl: No, no. Not even close.

Rebecca Lehrer: But it’s even looking at the first election we voted in was Bush v. Gore.

George Goehl: Oh, right.

Rebecca Lehrer: So actually, most of our adulthood has been actually this version of America. And also, frankly, the first 10 years of my life, or whatever, was Regan.

George Goehl: Oh, boy.

Rebecca Lehrer: California, and then in whatever he did there. The presidency. In reality, the things that, let’s say I grew up to be aligned with politically or values-wise, in the first 20 years was, let’s say ’92 to 2000, and then the next 20 years it’s a lot of those years were also not aligned politically with. In reality, the majority of my life has actually not had a leadership at presidential level which was who I voted for, who my family, who I am aligned with politically voted for.

It’s funny to, in retrospect, look at that.

George Goehl: Right.

Rebecca Lehrer: And to then start to reflect on what does it mean to feel like you’re winning? Culturally, or whatever. And actually for me, and I think this is something you’ve taught and I want to talk about this, is that it has given me … Really the last month-and-a-half, really since this election shifted in the end of July, the dynamics, I actually was like … All of the people that we’re in disagreement with about who we want to win, they have been sitting in so much fear of being on a losing team. And the feeling that we’ve had in the last even six months regarding this has been so deadly. I’m like, “Oh, I have a glimpse of compassion for how fearful, and how angry and scared they must be by somehow feeling like-“

Amy S. Choi: They’re losers.

Rebecca Lehrer: They’re the losers. It still doesn’t make me excuse the hatefulness in the answer. I was not sleeping before because the anxiety I had about this coming time.

I wonder how, when you’re going into the world, how do you remind yourself to have that compassion for yourself and for other people when you feel like you’re still looking for where your wins might be, or you feel like you’re losing too much?

George Goehl: About a year ago, I interviewed the folks that were at the beginning of deep canvassing, which is a model where you actually have these non-judgemental, long form conversations with people on the door knocking on something you’re pretty likely to disagree with. The model was created actually out of Los Angeles around the marriage amendment in the state. A lot of the folks that were canvassing were gay, trying to convince people to not vote for a marriage amendment that would make impossible for gay people to get married.

I’m interviewing somebody that’s done more of these canvas conversations than anybody in the world. I’m like, “How has this changed you? How has having thousands of conversations with people you disagreed with changed you?” His name Steve Deline, he’s with the New Conversations Initiative. He said, “I now know that there is a logic to how any came to believe what they believe. I don’t have to like it, I don’t have to agree with it. I don’t have to be happy that we live in a world that that logic could be possible. But there is a logic. Chances are, if I grew up in those exact same circumstances, that would be my logic. I don’t hate them, or I’m not surprised by the way they see the world. It’s now my job to be a new experience in their life that might help them rethink that logic.”

Be a new calculation in that logic, and that’s how I view the world. I admit, sometimes I’m just like, “How can all these rural people that are organized be supporting these Republicans who want to shit on the fucking Earth, when they love the Earth?” I’ll admit I have that stuff. But I’m also, at the end of the day, I have the logic I have because of a set of experiences. They have the logic they have because of a set of experiences. I need to just understand that. My job is to create new experiences. There’s nothing to be gained for me to be upset by where they’re at now. It’s just to figure out where they might be in the future.

Amy S. Choi: Right, the possibility. One of the organizers that you work with that you have introduced us to, the lovely Mike McMann.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: He says, “There is no losing if you never stop fighting.” I would like to hear from you how you think about defeat. I know you have an important process where you break it down, or you evaluate it, and then maybe can transform it. Can you walk us through that? Because also, as we are winning all these wins, losses are also inevitable. How do we make losing work for us?

George Goehl: I think we, one, we don’t accept it as permanent. We accept it as temporary. And then, we try to learn from it. Usually, what we’ll learn is that it came down to power. Sometimes, it came down to our lack of willingness to create a lot of tension, or to break what we call the Be Nice Rule. And that the other side was being incredibly un-nice, and we were a little too focused on being super nice, or not breaking any cultural norms, so therefore we lost. It could be something else. We try to grab every single lesson from losing, and then we get right back in the fight.

It’s funny, because when you said that I was like, “I don’t know if I ever remember losing.” That is because we never stop.

Amy S. Choi: Right.

George Goehl: I think that was the thing. We just never stopped. I want to be a person that just keeps fighting, and doesn’t become cynical. But just actually is like, “No, we’re just going to keep doing it because it’s the right thing to do.”

Rebecca Lehrer: Okay. That makes we want to focus on the right thing to do, just in that context.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer: How do we let that light in, do you know what I mean? To keep that motivation. I think that’s part of what I hear that is, “Well, we keep fighting because we know we have that north star, or we know that we know that we need to go there, because there’s no other choice.” That’s how I feel about the city I live in that I love and that is home. I’m like, “Well, we have these issues. Well, great, we’re going to fix them because we have to.” Because it’s a beautiful, special place, and we need to make sure there’s housing for everyone, and there’s an affordable way to live.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer: And we need to make sure our schools are good, and parks are taken care of. Because that’s what it is. We can’t abandon it.

But there’s something about how do you motivate yourself to find the north star in these moments? Is that part of the cutting the issue, always starting there? How do you keep going?

George Goehl: Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer: Because I feel like we watch a lot of people give up. I’m like, “What’s the difference between the people who give up and the people who keep going?”

George Goehl: Yeah. I don’t know what the difference is between people, but I would say this. It’s just that one step outside of the anxiety or the cynicism loop to action. And the fundamentals or organizing, which I deeply believe in, really help you do that. You organize a good meeting, organize a good action. That can be at the school board level, that can be the state level on some ballot initiative, or whatever. You line up successes, and you celebrate the hell out of every one. A good meeting, a good action, a good press release. Whatever it is, celebrate all the damn time. Enjoy the hell out of it. And don’t be cynical about any of it.

Somebody could say, “Ah, it was just one meeting.” No, it was a great meeting. Let’s go to the bar, let’s order some tacos, or whatever. That was a great meeting. There’s a rally tonight in St. Croix, Wisconsin. I heard it might not be perfect.

Rebecca Lehrer: Wait. Is there where La Croix is from?

George Goehl: It is not.

Rebecca Lehrer: That’s in Wisconsin too, though, right?

Amy S. Choi: Yes. That’s from La Crosse, Wisconsin.

Rebecca Lehrer: Rude! I’m sorry, I didn’t know that some French pronunciation-

George Goehl: I’m embarrassed. I didn’t know that.

Amy S. Choi: Oh, no. Maybe that’s the company store, which is also based in Wisconsin.

George Goehl: I like it. I like when you throw around some Midwest expertise like you’re really confident.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: I’ll do it all the time.

Rebecca Lehrer: You should.

George Goehl: No, I love it. I love it.

Rebecca Lehrer: I just say rude things about the Cheese Barn.

George Goehl: We’ve been on 38 minutes and I haven’t heard the Cheese Castle yet.

Rebecca Lehrer: It’s coming in, coming in.

Amy S. Choi: The Cheese Castle.

Rebecca Lehrer: The Cheese Castle.

Amy S. Choi: The Mars Cheese Castle.

Rebecca Lehrer: Whatever. Still not going.

Amy S. Choi: I think I remember so clearly, and we had been working together for years at this point, and friends for years, that I came to you, I was sitting on an industry board.

George Goehl: Oh, right.

Amy S. Choi: We had recently learned that a newly elected governor had abhorrent politics on abortion. It was right around Dobbs, and everybody was very, very tender. I was like, “What the fuck? And this guy, and he thinks that abortion is murder.” I was just freaking out. Everybody on the board was freaking out, and nobody quite knew how to deal with it, and how it reflected on the membership. He was doing really out of line things that were outside of the realm of his board responsibilities that made it our problem in a public sphere.

I went to you and you were like … I don’t even think I went to you for advice, I was just freaking out-

Rebecca Lehrer: No, no, you did.

Amy S. Choi: In rage.

Rebecca Lehrer: No, you did.

Amy S. Choi: Oh.

Rebecca Lehrer: You said, “Hey, I have this problem. How do I organize this?”

Amy S. Choi: You were just like, “Well, what do you want? Who do need to get on board to make that happen?” I was like, “Okay. Well, I want him off the board and I need at least eight other members who want him off the board with me.” Then it was so clear!

George Goehl: Right.

Amy S. Choi: And then we got him off the board. It was I had no way of getting my own self from the tizzy into those … It was a very straightforward and direct question. Thank you, George.

How do we get into the practice of being able to do that for ourselves?

George Goehl: Oh, I’m so glad. This is the thing. This is the thing right now. That’s what’s so great.

When I was working in a soup kitchen in Southern Indiana, I had been working there for three years, I thought I was doing the best work in the entire world. Then one day, I looked up, and the same people were eating there as when I first came in years ago. Nothing had changed. In fact, the soup kitchen lines were longer. We started to try to organize, but we didn’t know what it was. Luckily, I met a guy from Indianapolis who knew this organizing thing, and he came down and trained us. That was maybe the most important day of my life.

I say that because there are just a set of things, and they’re really not that complicated. That, if you learn, you will see any problem out. You’re not going to just automatically solve climate change. But you see a problem in your community, and you will feel super confident you can change it.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yes.

George Goehl: It is amazing. I’m incapable of being cynical ever again because of what I learned in that one day, in a little house in the middle of the country in Indiana. There are a set of steps, and we went through them in that campaign bill.

At the end of the day, figure out what you want changed. Ideally, in the beginning of a new group, or effort, or whatever, something somewhat in the realm of possibility with the actual power that you have. It could be stretch, but it can’t be totally off the charts. Then you really, the thing we don’t think about enough, is what is the self-interest of the person we’re trying to move? In this case, the board of this organization that you’re talking about. It could be the self-interest of the county commissioner, or the President of the United States, or the head of Housing and Urban Development, or whatever the hell. But you got to figure out, what is their self-interest in? What is the thing that they most want in the world, and what is the thing they definitely are most afraid of? You either want to block the things they most want, or bring the things they’re most afraid of a hell of a lot closer, apply a ton of pressure.

As long as you’re willing to probably break some cultural norms, whether that means protesting at somebody’s house, or whatever, something that’s a little outside of what you’re used to-

Rebecca Lehrer: Finding the phone number for somebody you’re not supposed to have that phone number for.

George Goehl: Exactly. Then, apply pressure. On so many things, if people knew those things.

I’m in Reedsburg now. If I was going to go over one county over, the thing I’d try to do is find out what is the thing the most people care about and passionately. What’s the most widely and deeply felt issue in Baraboo, Wisconsin? Then I’d figure out, okay, what do folks there most want changed? What’s the thing they really want changed? Then I’d figure out, okay, who could actually deliver that change? Then, what the hell would motivate them to do it? Then apply pressure. It’s not going to be easy, but more often than not, you will win. Then you’ll have a bunch of people that will be like, “Holy shit! Engaging in civic life works!”

Amy S. Choi: Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer: Right.

George Goehl: As long as I know these things. But unfortunately, I go to meetings all across the country, and the one thing that is consistent is people don’t know these things. They’re spinning their wheels, and that’s why you’ll run into so many people that are like, “Getting involved doesn’t work. People don’t want to change things. We’re never going to win.” We got to figure out how to flip that on its head.

Rebecca Lehrer: I would say, also …

Amy S. Choi: You know what anybody can do?

Rebecca Lehrer: What?

Amy S. Choi: Is they could buy a book called The Fundamentals of Organizing by George Goehl.

Rebecca Lehrer: Community Organizing.

Amy S. Choi: Fundamentals of Community Organizing by George Goehl. They could also listen to the podcast.

Rebecca Lehrer: Or the audiobook.

George Goehl: There you go.

Amy S. Choi: Fundamentals of Organizing.

Rebecca Lehrer: This is now actually a sales pitch.

George Goehl: Totally a sales pitch.

Rebecca Lehrer: It’s actually a really terrific book. We own and underline all the time.

I think the other thing in that though, George, is that the cutting the issue piece feels like this so specifically important. Because even just on a personal level as people who like to be benevolent dictators, as you know, me and Amy-

Amy S. Choi: George is the recipient of a lot of our benevolent … Maybe he doesn’t call it that.

Rebecca Lehrer: Benevolent. We’re like, “Just do that!”

George Goehl: I like it.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yes. In this regard, you’d like someone to tell you what to do.

George Goehl: Yes.

Rebecca Lehrer: Is that sometimes, when you’re doing this community work, or you’re trying to let’s say … I think the most salient thing for me right now is being a parent in a public elementary school, which I love, and I would want to get back to that. But I think it’s, “Oh, actually, I can’t do everything. And actually, I’m not the person who should do everything.” Finding the focus on the thing that I see as an issue across parents and focusing on that one thing, and somebody else might find other issues. But it’s constant work to also, for myself as a motivated person, I know for Amy, too, to being like, “I actually need to stay focused.”

George Goehl: Yes.

Rebecca Lehrer: My focus is room reps and creating a relationship between parents, teachers, and administration, because I think it’ll build a stronger community. There’s an issue around communications that’s happening. Other people bring other things up. I’m like, “That’s great. I’ll sign your thing, I’ll co-sign, but I can’t lead that.” But it’s very hard work to also stay focused.

George Goehl: Well, what you’re doing is perfect. I think it’s stay focused, pick a thing, and drive it to victory.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yes.

George Goehl: Then you will have actually changed something, you’ll have improved something. Some people that are part of it will be like, “Holy shit, this is working.” You’re not getting distracted. And what I heard in what you’re saying is you are showing solidarity for other people’s things.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

George Goehl: “I’ll sign the thing, I’ll show up for the thing, and all that, but I am focused on this thing.” I think that is the key.

Rebecca Lehrer: I think one of the challenges though, is also the non-cynicism and taking the win. That’s another thing.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer: How do we not move the goal posts while also continuing to move the goal posts?

Amy S. Choi: Yeah. Or just the fight for a better world is never ending.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: How do we look at it as ongoing opportunities, and think about it with potential and imagination, and not just like, “Oh, God, there’s so much more to do?”

George Goehl: Right. I think this cynicism, and there’s so much more to do, and almost deficit thinking almost sometimes feels like it’s more ripe with people that are on the progressive side than are on the conservative side. I don’t know if that’s true, but sometimes it feels like that. I would just encourage everybody in whatever the thing they’re doing is to build a culture of celebration. To what you guys said, taking the win. Make that part of the culture of what you’re doing. And unapologetically. No caveats, no anything. We’re going to get together and celebrate that we got rid of the rats.

Rebecca Lehrer: That is so worth celebrating.

Amy S. Choi: Oh, yeah. Who likes rats?

Rebecca Lehrer: Wait, listen. One time, George, and this is an issue in my marriage.

George Goehl: Whoa, whoa! Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Rebecca Lehrer: One time, I was in New York City, crossing at Atlantic Center.

Amy S. Choi: Oh, I remember this.

Rebecca Lehrer: Okay. Walking on Atlantic Avenue, by Barclays. I was wearing sandals, so I guess that was a decision. It was the summer. A rat crossed truly the most complex set of things, and ran across, I didn’t see it, and ran across my bare foot with its tiny, little paws. It’s little, little, pads of its feet, cold feet, I still feel it. This is 10, 12 years ago. Guess who saw it happen, the whole thing? Neil, my husband. He saw it coming.

Amy S. Choi: He didn’t do anything for you.

Rebecca Lehrer: It ran over my foot.

Amy S. Choi: He did nothing.

Rebecca Lehrer: He didn’t move me out of way. Okay? Anyways, that is relevant in that I still will never let it go. That’s a place where I won’t take a win, I will remember the loss.

George Goehl: I don’t see any wins in this story.

Rebecca Lehrer: No.

Amy S. Choi: No wins, no wins.

Rebecca Lehrer: Everybody loses.

Amy S. Choi: You know what I want to do right now? In the spirit of unapologetic celebration, I would like everybody to share a win.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah!

Amy S. Choi: Yeah. I’ll start.

Rebecca Lehrer: You start.

Amy S. Choi: I have one, I have one. I have one. This also involves my children’s school, which I adore, in Bedstein, Brooklyn. It is a primarily Black school, it has a very Black culture. The program there is an intentional desegregation program. It was designed by the city to try and fight school segregation. Yada, yada, yada, there’s not a whole lot of Asian people there. It will surprise nobody that I know all of them.

I organized, two years ago, our first AAPI activity that the school had ever had. It was brilliant. It was all parent-led. We fed all the children in the school, three lunch periods, 800-some kids. It was so joyful and so delightful. Then this year, I was at my wit’s end in May. I was like, “You know what, we got to do it again,” so we did it again. It was another huge success. It was, again, all, as Gabe says, “By force of personality and also being psychotic,” I made it happen.

Then this year, the administration pushed, and the PTA pushed for it to be on the official PTA budget. So we will have resources, and I can do more, and we can bring in authors, and we have a new library. I have a chance to build something big. I was like, “Me and the other 28 Asian families in this school fucking did it.”

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: Not just our kids love it, and are so happy and so proud, but we made it for every child. And every kid gets to eat great food, and play a few puzzles, and see flags, and have some really beautiful conversations.

Rebecca Lehrer: And get some cute stickers.

Amy S. Choi: And get really cute stickers.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: That is, as I head into the school year of 2024-25, which I find mildly overwhelming, I feel like I’m coasting on that win. I have six or seven months to build up to May.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

Amy S. Choi: It really feels like one of those things that-

George Goehl: Love it.

Amy S. Choi: We have no idea what’s going to happen in November. We have hopes. Then we have no idea what’s going to happen in January. But I know, and I’m anchored in something that I have been working on building for a few years, that I am convinced will be a great success in May.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah. Right.

George Goehl: It’s amazing. I love that! I didn’t know that.

Amy S. Choi: Thank you, George.

Rebecca Lehrer: I know. I want the snacks. George, do you have a win you want to share?

George Goehl: Yeah. I shared earlier how I was trying the organize but didn’t know how to do it, and then I met a guy named Mike Evans in Indianapolis who clearly did. He taught me and a couple other people how to organize and changed my life. Fast-forward 30 years, I found he was working at a Speedway gas station in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He came on the team Addition, where I worked, and started organizing in Three Rivers, in Michigan, which is 15 miles from the farm he grew up on in Indiana. He started knocking on doors, and people were upset about lead in the water, and all kinds of issues with the water. Started organizing there, had lots of meetings, put pressure on the mayor and all of that. They just won water testing and water filters for people in the community. Now they’re going to ramp up the fight, because they think the pipes need to be replaced.

Pretty amazing. A guy came off the sidelines, at a Speedway, making 15 bucks an hour, and is now helping other people 15 miles from where he grew up win the stuff they need.

Rebecca Lehrer: Oops, I cried.

Amy S. Choi: I know. Also, I didn’t know that that Mike Evans was the same Mike Evans that you’ve been talking about.

George Goehl: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Amy S. Choi: Oh my God, does that change the story, George.

George Goehl: Okay. That’s good.

Rebecca Lehrer: I love it. All the Mikes. All George’s Mikes.

George Goehl: All the Mikes. So many Mikes.

Rebecca Lehrer: So many Mikes.

Amy S. Choi: What’s your win?

Rebecca Lehrer: I will talk recent wins, but I think, actually, also school related. I think setting up a room rep program. We say room reps instead of room parents, but that’s the traditional thing just because a lot of families at our school are not two parents. It’s an aunt, or a grandma, or lots of different family structures. There was nobody organizing that, which was really critical for knowing other parents, asking questions. Creating a buffer for some of the administration to … 80% of the questions that parents have are the same. “Why is school ending at 1:13 PM on Thursday?”

Amy S. Choi: 1:13 is really specific.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah. Very specific things. And also, helping organize around that. This is the second year, and it’s properly organized. I have forms for people to sign up. QR codes for anybody, and it’s in English, and Spanish, and Tagalog. The principal this week said, when I reached out to her about something because I had thing ahead about a question about Back to School Night. She called me the next day and said, “I cried when you sent that to me.” This is a principal in a small public school in Los Angeles who’s working so hard. She said, “I was at dinner for my husband’s birthday, and I cried because I was so worried about this thing that was happening, and I didn’t know how to resolve it. Then you, as the parent, reached out to me first to solve that problem.” Now she’s completely invested in our program, which makes everything better.

Now all the new parents at the school feel like, “Wow! Communications are so good here. I know what’s happening. I know how I can make a difference. I know what’s coming up.” That already makes more people invested in our school community. I’m just so moved, that I just feel-

Amy S. Choi: It turns out we’re major PTA moms.

Rebecca Lehrer: Oh, the most.

Amy S. Choi: Who even knew?

George Goehl: You guys are organizers.

Rebecca Lehrer: It really feels like it.

George Goehl: I don’t know if you’re PTA moms, I think you’re organizers.

Rebecca Lehrer: I know, I actually feel-

Amy S. Choi: I think PTA moms are organizers.

Rebecca Lehrer: No.

George Goehl: There you go.

Rebecca Lehrer: Well, there’s some who are only in for themselves. Okay. So, George, here’s a question for you.

Amy S. Choi: Related to seeing people who have completely different political beliefs than you. What is one thing people can do?

Every day, I do, or I try, a loop around Prospect Park in Brooklyn. It’s a three-mile walk, it’s a lovely walk, and there is a very clear counterclockwise direction in which all traffic flows. At least twice a week, there is a man that walks clockwise, meaning against traffic and everybody sees him, and he’s always wearing a very aggressive Trump shirt. How do I see that man instead of wanting to throw pebbles at him twice a week?

George Goehl: Yeah. You guys ever go to the grocery store, you’re having some kind of consumer interaction, and you’re like, “God, this person is mean or shitty.”

Rebecca Lehrer: Yes.

Amy S. Choi: Yes.

George Goehl: You were just like, “What the hell? Sorry, I didn’t know I had to put the little credit card in with all the gazillion options we have now.” I just always try to remember I don’t have any idea-

Rebecca Lehrer: That’s right.

George Goehl: About what this person’s been through. I don’t know what their life is like, what their childhood was like, what happened two hours before.

I know there are times that something that happened two hours before really messed me, and I didn’t show up at my best. I would hope somebody would show me some grace and go, “Yeah, maybe that guy’s got a bunch of stuff going on with his family today.” I have found getting in that stance has just made my life way better.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

George Goehl: You’re like, “I don’t know what happened. I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t know what’s going on with this Trump guy.”

I was in Tomahawk, Wisconsin the other day, and somebody had 70 Trump signs in very maliced colors of Biden, Kamala run the Communist Party signs. I’m like, “This isn’t about ideology, there’s something wrong here.”

Amy S. Choi: Yeah.

George Goehl: “This person is suffering. I need to not take this for more than what it is, somebody is suffering.”

I would just say assume some bad shit is happening with people. I don’t know. I will just say this. It’ll make your life way better.

Amy S. Choi: Right.

George Goehl: It’ll make your life way better.

Rebecca Lehrer:

Related to all the win conversation earlier and the context change, it is also easier to do it when you don’t feel backed up against a wall and fearful.

George Goehl: Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer: It’s easier to have that leave of compassion, and then try to carry it through other times, I think.

Okay. Related to playing the long game for the long win, what is one thing people can do? Go to a cabin in Wisconsin and read books once a year.

George Goehl: Yes, that would be true. That reference, I think, is step outside of your life more often and you will gain clarity.

Amy S. Choi: Yeah.

George Goehl: Go to some places where you can be really quiet and you will gain clarity.

Amy S. Choi: Or you’ll go insane.

George Goehl: Yes, yes.

Amy S. Choi: That battle.

George Goehl: I think we all have to step off and take way better care of ourselves. That’s the great thing about being alone and in solitude, is you actually start to see the truth. Most of the time, we don’t see the truth in our lives, we’re in some kind of hamster wheel.

But I would say the other thing, Rebecca, is just we’ve said it all the time, is find ways to win, and experience success, and joy, and moving the ball forward. That attracts, it’s like a magnetism. It attracts energy, it attracts people, it attracts love, it attracts laughter, celebration. Figuring out how to have some successes instead of focusing on everything that’s wrong.

As you guys both know, it happened to coincide with when the pandemic hit. I happened to, a couple weeks before, start a gratitude practice, which I now know is almost a cliché. Every day, got up and wrote around 10 things that I was grateful for. I tried to really embody them as I wrote them down. It completely changed my life. I’ll notice, if I slip off of that practice, I will notice it. But when I do it, it literally rewired my brain.

It was like I could be at a crossroads and be like, “Oh, I have a choice. Deficit and stuff is shitty.” Literally, this is what would happen. I’d be like, “Oh.” Instead of going, “That tree is dying,” I’d be like, “That tree is still living.”

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah.

George Goehl: Just figure out whatever it is you need to get onto that path, because it’s such a better path to live your life.

Rebecca Lehrer: My son said last night at dinner, to me and Amy. We were sitting there, he’s five. “What are you guys grateful for today?”

George Goehl: Wow!

Amy S. Choi: It was so fun. “I’m grateful for the Earth.”

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah, that’s what he said. It got real broad.

George Goehl: That’s better than my kid, Rebecca. Addie used to be so cynical, or just bummed when Ai-jen and I would do our gratitude practice. We’d be at the dinner table and she’d be like, “Milk.” She’s like, “Next.” Then be like, “Forks.” I’m like, “All right, got it. You’re not into it.”

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah. Well, yes. He’ll enter that zone, he’s still little.

George Goehl: Oh, that’s true. He’ll get into his zone.

Rebecca Lehrer: Yeah. No, but it was exactly. I think Amy and I both do a roses and thorns and buds practice with our kids.

George Goehl: Oh, yeah. That’s right.

Rebecca Lehrer: It’s really wonderful to do at the dinner table. It feels like it’s so meaningful.

Amy S. Choi: Yeah.

Rebecca Lehrer: Thank you for sharing that.

Amy S. Choi: What is something you have learned from your kid? The names?

George Goehl: I’ll try to think of an answer that doesn’t involve Eminem.

Rebecca Lehrer: You’re like, “Just lose yourself in the moment.” That’s what I learned.

George Goehl: My daughter’s a teenager, and it’s not been super easy probably for her or me. I guess, I’ve learned, one, whatever I’m feeling in the change of relationship that has happened, she’s feeling a lot more than I am. And though she might not know it yet, she is trying to find her way back to me and all her parents, and doesn’t have the words for it, and maybe doesn’t even know the path to get there, but she’s definitely trying. I’d say to anybody that feels like they’ve lost their kid for a bit, know they’re trying to make their way back. We actually can’t help them get there, you just got to be there for those moments when they come back. Then when they come back, don’t think they’re going to come back again the next week. It might be a month, or six months again. Just enjoy when it’s there, but always be there.

Amy S. Choi: Uh-oh, I’ll cry.

Rebecca Lehrer: I’m not ready for teenagers.

Amy S. Choi: Thank you, George. We are very, very grateful for you.

Rebecca Lehrer: Always.

George Goehl: Oh, and likewise. Yeah, it’s an amazing partnership and friendship.

Amy S. Choi: Thank you, George. You will always be the real Rat Czar to us.

Rebecca Lehrer: The Ratatouille to our Remy and Emile.

Stay tuned for a special bonus episode on our feed. We’ll be dropping the first episode of To See Each Other, all about one of the most exciting organizing fights in the country right now, protecting beloved nursing homes from being sold off to private buyers. We’re super proud of it and hope you enjoy listening.

Amy S. Choi: Next up, we have Cristina Jimenez, a MacArthur Genius, and a genius in all these other ways, too, and a leading fighter for Dreamers in this country. See you next time!

CREDITS

This podcast is a production of The Mash-Up Americans. It is executive produced by Amy S. Choi, and Rebecca Lehrer, senior editor and producer is Sara Pellegrini, production manager is Shelby Sandlin. Thanks to DJ Rob Swift for our theme song, Salsa Scratch. Please make sure to follow and share the show with your friends.